A liberal democracy, we don’t want to import politics from overseas: New Zealand PM on diaspora Khalistan supporters

New Zealand is not a militaristic country, and you said at the Raisina Dialogue that you don’t intend to join the Quad. What exactly will the bilateral defence agreement entail? 

We are a small country, but we have very strong values, and we believe very much in the international rules-based system, freedom of navigation, and sovereignty of nation states. And as I said at the Raisina inauguration, the rules-based system is giving way to a power-based [system]. Since we came to office 16 months ago, we have been looking at our defence capability, and where we might want to build in the future. That’s why I have been deepening our relationships, with our major ally, Australia, but also within Southeast Asia, Northeast Asia, and now India as well, where we have like-minded countries with convergent interests. You have got New Zealand, very much focused on one side of the Indo Pacific region, and you have got India on the other side, so we book-end the region. It makes great sense for us to work together, whether it is on port calls or defence exchanges.

Is this about China, given its activities in the Pacific Islands, including a strategic partnership, most recently with Cook Islands?

I think our strategy is really about the world in general. The Pacific Islands, New Zealand and Australia had been living in a pretty benign environment thus far. But there’s no doubt it has become geo-strategically and geopolitically much more contested. For us to have prosperity at home, we have to have a platform of security in the region. We used to be able to be able to think of economics, and security and defence as two separate conversations, but today they are very much interdependent.

How do you in New Zealand see how Mr. Trump is changing America’s foreign policy, on Russia-Ukraine, on Europe? Do you think it will affect the Indo Pacific as well? 

We have a long-standing relationship, obviously, with the U.S., a long-standing partner of New Zealand, and I am very confident that we will work well with the new administration. We have felt very strongly about the Ukraine issue from the start. We can identify with being a smaller country being invaded by a bigger power that has broken international law, and waging a moral and an unjust war, actually. It’s immoral, it’s illegal, and Russia should, frankly, withdraw. I am proud of the fact that we are working with the U.K. in training Ukrainian troops, I am proud of the investment that we have made to the relief funds, and I am proud of the fact that we have cranked up big time sanctions on individuals and entities out of Russia.

I joined a call on Saturday night with [U.K.] PM Starmer about standing with Ukraine, and making sure that Russia actually participates in the ceasefire and does what it needs to do.

India hasn’t cut its ties with Russia, does not enter any of the sanctions that you are a part of, and has increased its oil intake from Russia since the Ukraine war began. Did you bring this up with Prime Minister Modi? 

We discussed a range of issues around global affairs, including Ukraine. And what you understand in the world is, in a world of 195 countries, we are not all monolithic, and we have different views about things. And it doesn’t mean we are going to agree on everything, but actually we work where we can agree and the things that we do agree on, and there is much that is in the Indian-New Zealand relationship, where there is massive values alignment, very convergent interests, and it makes great sense for us to come and work together. 

Another area that seems to diverge was over India’s security concerns over what are seen as pro-Khalistani Sikh diaspora groups in New Zealand. Prime Minister Modi came out publicly during your press statement and said he expects you to clamp down on this illegal activity by anti-Indian elements. Did that surprise you?

Well, the first thing I would say is the Indian diaspora in New Zealand has contributed immensely to New Zealand. They are younger, they are better educated, and they are wealthier and are doing very well. New Zealand is increasingly a multicultural country, but we don’t want to import politics from overseas. Our priority is to make sure we have respect for each other, we understand each other, we can work together even though there may be differences. We don’t see great fault lines within the Indian community in New Zealand. They work together rather harmoniously, irrespective of regions and religions they come from. With respect, I understand the concerns that India has raised with me at a macro level around the threat that they see. But as I said privately [to PM Modi], and publicly, New Zealand is a liberal democracy. We believe in free speech. We make sure that that free speech is legal. We have an outstanding police force that actually enforces our laws. A liberal democracy enables people to take out protests, but equally, it has to be legal, and police enforce that.

India had objected to the Referendum on Khalistan held last November — would you would allow another to be conducted?

All I am just saying to you is, New Zealand is a multicultural country, and our immigrants that come to New Zealand to become New Zealanders in our society are deeply committed to the way that we want to work. We have got challenges like everybody has, but the point I am trying to make is that we have a pretty harmonious society, and our new migrants understand that. Again, we are a liberal democracy. We pride ourselves on free speech, that is important. 

New Zealand was one of the five eye countries that expressed its concerns about the Canadian case, where the Canadian government accused Indian government agents of being involved in killing a Khalistani activist in Canada. A New Zealand intelligence report had also spoken about the dangers of foreign interference with a reference to India. Did you bring up any of these concerns with Mr. Modi?

Our position is pretty well understood — there is no tolerance for foreign interference in New Zealand. We are a standalone nation that respects the sovereignty of nation states, and as a result, in a liberal democracy, it’s really important that we uphold the laws that we hold ourselves accountable to. 

India and New Zealand have re-launched talks for a Free Trade Agreement (FTA). The two countries right now have just $2 billion of bilateral trade, there’s no direct flight connectivity. How realistic is the plan for an FTA to be done soon?

Well, look, both of us actually want to get this done fairly quickly, but also we know that there’ll be hard and sensitive parts of any negotiation. But, you know, getting to this point and actually relaunching a comprehensive FTA that deepens up trade and economic ties is really important, and so I’m very confident Minister [of Industry and Supply, Piyush] Goyal and Minister [of Trade for New Zealand, Todd] McClay, will build a strong relationship for what will be tough negotiations. We look at a country like China, and we have 15 times the trade we have with India.  And yet they have similar population size, which means there’s a huge opportunity here for us to get going. 

One of the sticking points has always been over market access for agricultural products and dairy products in particular. How key is that for New Zealand? 

Well, look, it’s one of those sensitive issues. There’s interest on both sides of that conversation. We won’t be doing the negotiations with the media, certainly, but we’re going to get the very best deal that we can for New Zealanders, as we would expect India to do as well for India. Prime Minister Modi and I directed both Trade Ministers yesterday to move with pace.